Jasper is joined by Dirk Minnebo, Founder of Iamb&b which is the largest short term rental management company in Amsterdam! Dirk’s company manages listings in both Amsterdam and Paris and he brings some valuable knowledge to this interview on the topic of optimizing your listing and creating a great experience for your guests.
As many of you know, Airbnb is now limiting the number of nights a year hosts can rent out their place in Amsterdam, but surprisingly Dirk says this will help instead of hurt his business. Tune in for a great interview!
Some of the topics covered
Background of Iamb&b
- Largest short term rental management company in Amsterdam
- Founded by Dirk In 2014
- Manages 800 listings in Amsterdam and 100 in Paris
Recent Airbnb enforcement of rental restrictions
Why the restrictions will actually help Iamb&b
Why Airbnb is stepping up regulation enforcement
Dirk’s advice to Airbnb hosts
- Be honest about your listing (mention the faults)
- Remember that what is “normal” in your country might not be normal elsewhere
- Make your listing personal
- Focus on cleanliness
- Use white linens and white towels
- Remember that the details matter
- Sticker on the toilet roll
- One hair in the bed/shower will ruin the guest’s experience and your 5-star rating
The flaw in Airbnb’s pricing algorithms
- Conflict of interest between what’s best for the host and what’s best for the guest.
How Iamb&b helps hosts maximize their pad's potential
- Iamb&b can take care of the whole process from listing and renting to cleaning
Recommended tools
What’s next for Iamb&b
Learn more about Iamb&b
Paris: http://iambnb.fr
Amsterdam: http://iambnb.nl
Resources mentioned
beyondpricing.com Use promo code: GP4YP for one FREE month and $60 in credit
Connect with Jasper
Email: jasper@getpaidforyourpad.com
Twitter: @GetPaidForUrPad
Instagram: @GetPaidForYourPad
Facebook: www.facebook.com/getpaidforyourpad
This episode is sponsored by Hostfully.com where you can create a custom digital guidebook for your guests!
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Complete Transcript for Get Paid for Your Pad Episode 121
Jasper:
Welcome to Get Paid For Your Pad, the definitive show on Airbnb hosting, featuring the best advice on how to maximize profits from your Airbnb listing, as well as real-life experiences from Airbnb hosts all over the world. Welcome.
Jasper:
This episode is brought to you by Hostfully, a company that helps you make beautiful guidebooks for your listing. Make your own at hostfully.com/pad, and a special for Get Paid For Your Pad listeners, you’ll get a free guidebook consultation after you make your guidebook.
Welcome to another episode of Get Paid For Your Pad. My name is Jasper, I’m your host, and today I’m here with Dirk. He’s the founder of iamb&b, which is the largest short-stay management company in the city of Amsterdam. So, Dirk, welcome to the show.
Dirk:
Thank you.
Jasper:
How are you doing today?
Dirk:
I’m doing great. It’s cold outside, the weather’s great, and we’re busy, so I’m doing okay.
Jasper:
New Year’s Eve is probably the busiest night in Amsterdam.
Dirk:
Yeah, it is. The week before and the week after New Year’s Eve is our busiest time. We had a lot of guests, and now we’re ready to relax a little bit more.
Jasper:
How many apartments or rooms do you manage?
Dirk:
We manage around 800 in Amsterdam and 100 in Paris.
Jasper:
Oh, okay. You manage places in Paris, too.
Dirk:
Yeah.
Jasper:
Okay, cool. And are these mostly apartments, or are these also rooms that people rent out?
Dirk:
It’s both. So, we help a lot of people rent out their apartments when they’re on holiday, and other than that, we have bed-and-breakfast short-stay apartments and hotel apartments, so it’s rooms or whole apartments.
Jasper:
Cool. So, let’s first discuss the recent regulations that have come into effect. Well, I guess I should say, the regulations have been there for a while, but recently, Airbnb decided to make a deal with the city, and they’re now going to enforce those rules, meaning that they will actually block your calendar after 60 days in Amsterdam, right. So, you’re allowed to rent out for 60 days, and by that I mean 60 days of actually renting out, not 60 days of days just passing. You know, this could be, if you’re fully booked for the first two months, then you’ll hit that target in March, but if you only host, let’s say, five days a week, or let’s say five days a month, then 60 days would be the whole year.
Dirk:
Yeah.
Jasper:
First of all, I know that you’ve always complied with the rules, right?
Dirk:
Yes, in Amsterdam.
Jasper:
For example, someone like myself, I wouldn’t have been able to use your services.
Dirk:
No, no. As we said from the beginning, we want to comply with the rules and regulations of every city that we work in. And so, in Amsterdam, you can rent out your whole apartment for 60 days a year, or you can rent, for example, 40% of your home all year round, or you need special permits. So, our customers comply with those regulations, and as you said, now Airbnb made a deal with the municipality in Amsterdam, and also in London, to enforce those rules and block the calendars of people who go beyond those 60 days in Amsterdam or 90 days in London. So, for us, that’s actually good news because we already comply to those regulations, and now others have to do the same.
Jasper:
Right. So, you might see fewer competition for the apartments that you have.
Dirk:
Yes. I think, in Amsterdam, there’s a problem with some illegal hotels, so where people buy up whole buildings and offer them as a de facto hotel, and those will at least move from Airbnb. They might flee to other platforms, of course. Airbnb will start blocking them, so for us, that’s really good news.
Jasper:
That’s good news. All right. Do you use other platforms, as well?
Dirk:
Yeah, we do. For our legal full-time apartments, we also use platforms as booking.com, or HomeAway, or Housters.
Jasper:
Okay. So if, let’s say, I want to rent out my apartment in Amsterdam, and you want to comply with the rules, so you’re not going to rent it out for more than 60 days on Airbnb, but will you rent it out on other platforms?
Dirk:
No, because the rules aren’t Airbnb-specific, so it doesn’t matter what platform you use. The only difference is that Airbnb enforces the rules, and the other platforms don’t.
Jasper:
Right.
Dirk:
So, if you were intending to rent it out illegally, yeah, you would use other platforms, but if you want to comply, it doesn’t matter if it’s 60 days on Airbnb, or booking.com, or any other platform.
Jasper:
Right, okay. Got it. So, yeah, you mentioned, in London it’s 90 days, and I’m kind of wondering how this is going to work, exactly, because I looked at my listing, I didn’t see the counter yet. I didn’t see the thing that’s supposed to tell you how many days you’ve rented out. And, you know, I’m curious, what do you think, how is this going to work? Because, for example, let’s say I’ve hosted for 55 days and then I get an inquiry for another 7 days, is that inquiry going to get blocked because it will put me over the limit?
Dirk:
Yeah, well, Airbnb’s still working on the technical side, so the counter is already online for a lot of apartments, not for all of them, so you can already see how many days you’re renting out in 2017. Some of our apartments actually already exceed the 60 days because they’re bed-and-breakfasts and they’re booked for like three months in advance. They’re not blocked because, first, they’re going to implement a procedure where you can say, “Well, this is a legal B&B, so I’m allowed to rent it out more than 60 days,” so they won’t start blocking apartments yet. But, it’s something that Airbnb is developing. And, in the case of your inquiry, I think, again, those inquiries will be blocked, but they still have to develop that, and they have five more months to do so.
Jasper:
Oh, because they’re going to implement this in the summer?
Dirk:
Yeah. In the deal with the municipality, it was set that they have a year to implement those changes and start the counter on January 1st. So, that happened on a lot of accounts, not all of them, but yeah, they’re going to implement it over the course of the next couple of months.
Jasper:
Right, got it. Okay, interesting. So, what advice do you have for people who have been renting out their homes for more than 60 days? What are the options that are available for them?
Dirk:
Well, if you rent out your whole apartment, there aren’t a lot of options in Amsterdam because a hotel permit or a short-stay permit, you can’t get it. You could convert your apartment to a bed-and-breakfast, where you live in 60% of your apartment and rent out 40%, which is really a good option. And, otherwise, you could go to Expert Rentals or take the risk, but we always advise people to comply to the local regulations, of course.
Jasper:
Right, because the enforcement has also been getting more strict in recent times, as well, right?
Dirk:
Yeah. Yeah, we actually see that all over Europe, and also in the States, but especially in Amsterdam, where they said, “Well, we have these regulations, we need to enforce them, because otherwise, why bother?” So, they’re stepping up their enforcement and working closely together with platforms as Airbnb, doing some research themselves. There’s a special telephone line where you can call in illegal hotels in Amsterdam. So, they’re doing more and more to find those illegal hotels, which I think is a good thing, although sometimes they could be a little bit more tactful and relied. Yeah, they’re stepping up their enforcement and I think this will happen in cities all over the world.
Jasper:
Yeah, that’s what I expect, as well, because I think Airbnb wants to make an example out of Amsterdam. They want to preserve their image. You know, now they can say, “Hey, in Amsterdam, look, we’re working together with the city to make short-stay rentals a sustainable business, a sustainable practice for the long term, that is a win-win situation for both parties.” You know, I agree. I think they will be looking to strike similar deals in other places, as well. What other cities come to mind?
Dirk:
Well, we’re working in Paris. In Paris, you can rent out your apartment for 120 days, and that’s a city with similar problems. So, there’s pressure on the housing market, there are a lot of tourists, and people start to rebel. Another city that comes to mind is Barcelona where there’s a lot of protest against Airbnb or illegal hotels. Berlin, is an example. And also, New York, where the state of New York basically banned renting out your whole apartment for less than 30 days. So, it’s a problem all over the world in the big cities, and I think what Airbnb wants to do is also show the positive side and make sure that everybody understands that there are also great possibilities on home-sharing, and they want to ensure that that will be preserved and not be thrown out with the bad things.
Jasper:
Absolutely. So, if you’re in one of those big cities, either in Europe or the U.S., San Francisco, New York, certain areas of Los Angeles maybe, or Chicago, this type of regulation might be coming your way, as well, so it’s definitely smart to start thinking about how you’re going to adjust. And I’ve already gotten some questions, actually, from people in London and in Amsterdam who are also looking for alternatives, people who used to rent out for more than the allowed number of days.
You know, for me personally, I’ve talked about this a few times already, but I’m actually heading to Chile soon to check out some apartments there, so I’m going to make an escape and leave the city, basically. But, for a lot of people, that might not be an option, but renting out 40% of your house is still possible. In Amsterdam, that’s called a B&B, a bed-and-breakfast, right, so you might need to convert. You know, there are some options.
But, let’s talk about some tips for Airbnb hosts, because, how many apartments do you manage?
Dirk:
So, we do 800 in Amsterdam and 100 in Paris.
Jasper:
Okay, so almost 1,000 apartments in total, so I imagine that, having so many apartments, you get so much experience that I’m sure you have a lot of insightful advice for Airbnb hosts all over the world.
Dirk:
Yeah. I think the most important thing is to be honest about your listing. Don’t make it look better than it is in reality. For example, a lot of apartments in Amsterdam have really steep stairs, so we make sure that we always mention that they do because people who are not able to climb them would be really disappointed. This was one of our first mistakes, actually, when we just started, because we thought, “Well, those stairs are normal in Amsterdam,” and then, one of our first guests were two 80-year-old women who almost got a heart attack when they saw the stairs, so we had to move them to a ground-floor apartment, that we luckily managed. So, be honest about your listing.
Other than that, I think it’s important to make it personal, which sounds a bit weird if we have almost 1,000 apartments. How could you make it personal? Every apartment is inhabited by people, so we ask the homeowners to help us with that. So, they give their local tips, they leave presents for the guests, they show them around, file a letter in Our Hosts. We have an app for our hosts so they can see what’s cool in the neighborhood, how everything in the apartment works, so we can actually host the guests as if it were our own apartment. And I think that’s a really important experience that people look for when they book an apartment on Airbnb. You don’t want to be in a hotel. You don’t want to be in a short-stay apartment. You want to be at somebody’s home and experience the city like a local.
So, I think those two things are the most important, and after that, yeah, everything’s in the details. So, make sure your apartment is clean, that there’s fresh linen, that you used the same linen for your guests, that you tested it so you know it’s good. Make sure that everything in the experience is well prepared into the details, and those are countless, but the most important thing is, I think, cleanliness and a good bed.
Jasper:
Right. What do you think about the color of the sheets?
Dirk:
Yeah, well, we always use white because it gives a clean feeling. There are also people who use warmer colors because they think it looks better on the pictures. I think white bed linen gives you like a hotel feel, which you want for a bed. You feel luxurious when you have white linen, white towels, and everything is clean and bright. So, yeah, we use that, but I’ve spoken to hosts who say, “Well, we want to be more authentic, or unique bed linen,” so that works for them.
Jasper:
Yeah. You know, I started sending out weekly newsletters on Monday, and every newsletter contains a tip for hosts, and my first one was, use white sheets. And I know not everybody agrees with it, so that’s why I was curious about your opinion. I also believe it’s good to use white sheets because then you can see that they’re clean, right. There’s nothing to hide.
Dirk:
Exactly.
Jasper:
But, you mentioned the towels, which is interesting. I don’t have white towels. I just realized that the same concept applies with towels, I guess, right?
Dirk:
Exactly, yeah.
Jasper:
Yeah. So, I guess the next thing I’ll do is buy some white towels.
Dirk:
That’s a good idea. And about the details, we have this little strip around the toilet when we clean it, like you see in hotels. Or, we do just like a little sticker on the toilet roll so people know that it’s been cleaned, because I think one of the biggest worries of people entering a new apartment is, is it clean? Can I find hairs from the last guest? So, they’re really worried about the cleanliness, and if they can see that is has been cleaned, it will reassure them and give them a good stay.
Jasper:
Right, yeah. That’s a good point, too, those little stickers that you can put on the toilet rolls so that you can see that’s a new one, because even the thought that somebody has been on the toilet before you is… Even though it’s clean, just the thought…
Dirk:
You don’t want to think about it.
Jasper:
Yeah, you don’t want to think about it. So, you really have to pay attention to details when it comes to cleanliness, I think. You know, even one piece of hair… Imagine your whole apartment is completely spotless, but there’s one hair in the bed.
Dirk:
That’s killing, yeah.
Jasper:
There goes your five-star review.
Dirk:
Yeah, exactly, yeah. But it’s gross, if you find it. Or, if you’re in the shower and you’re there, you’re naked, you want a shower, and then you find two or three hairs from previous guests, that’s disgusting.
Jasper:
Right, yeah. So, that’s something to be avoided.
Hosts, I can’t emphasize how important it is to share recommendations of things to do or eat near your listing beforehand. Your guests won’t have to go through TripAdvisor, Foursquare, or Yelp. They won’t have to scratch their head and think about possible places right in the moment. I’ve been using Hostfully to create an online and printable guidebook to show my guests my favorite coffee places in Amsterdam. They use my recommendations, and I’m getting fewer questions from my guests as a result. I’ve also included screenshots of my guidebook on my Airbnb listing as a way to differentiate my listing from others. So, make your own guidebook at hostfully.com/pad.
Well, Dirk, you mentioned you’re using an app. That was actually going to be my next question, like what kind of tools do you use to manage that many apartments?
Dirk:
Well, first of all, we searched out for tools that were already available. So, one of them is Beyond Pricing, which we use for our full-time apartments. Although, we found out that we could add some local knowledge to it, so what we did is, actually, we built our own software. We have three developers. So, basically, we needed software to manage all those different listings because every customer keeps their own accounts, and we don’t put them in our accounts, we manage theirs, so we needed software to talk to all the guests on a different listing. So, we built that, and then we built in pricing tools for it, and now we have an app for our employees, which is connected, basically, to the software that we already built.
So, when they come to an apartment, they see everything about it. So, they see how the heating works, where the local bakery is, what the tips are from the homeowner, who the guest is. We keep a hotel register because you’re obliged to in Amsterdam, but also, we use that to send our guests tips about the city or if there’s a local event, like at this moment, there’s a Light Festival in Amsterdam with art installations of light around the canal, so we send that to our guests… “You could check this out.”
We checked on tools that were available, we weren’t really happy with what was in the market, so we decided to develop it ourselves. And, for now, it’s only available for us, but especially for things like the pricing, we’re thinking on opening up our data and share it with people who do it themselves.
Jasper:
Interesting. So, you’re saying that the apps that are currently out there didn’t really satisfy your needs, and so you developed your own. That tells me that there’s a lot of room for the apps, because there are a lot of apps, but I guess there’s a lot of room for improvement. Can you mention some of the things that you didn’t like about the apps, or some of the things that you couldn’t find?
Dirk:
Yeah, well, for us, it’s quite specific because we’re a company, so it’s different for an individual host. Some apps might suit the needs of individual hosts really good, but for us as a company, it doesn’t work. But, for example, pricing, we found out that most pricing is suited for full-time apartments, but a lot of our apartments are only rented out 60 days, so they couldn’t really recognize on how well they were doing, so we needed to develop something for that.
Other things is like communication with our guests. What if it’s in the night and somebody sends an inquiry, you want to respond right away, so we made like an auto-message system that tells them, “Well, it’s in the middle of the night here. Thanks for the inquiry. We’ll come back in the morning,” and we send them messages, and now we’re working as a company to be available 24/7. But, still, I think speed and using templates for your messages is really critical, and Airbnb has started to develop that, as well, but when we started, it wasn’t there, so we made it ourselves and now we can make it specific for our own needs.
So, everything we want, we can basically build exactly as we want it, but there are a lot of great apps out there. As I mentioned, I think Beyond Pricing beats the Airbnb pricing system, but still, we wanted to do better, so we use them but we improved on it. And I think that’s really important for everybody. If you use a tool, always keep your manual input and make sure that you use it at the best way possible.
Jasper:
Right. That’s another topic that I wanted to discuss with you, the Airbnb pricing algorithm, because, you know, I’ve had a lot of questions from people and a lot of comments from people saying that they don’t like it. A lot of people say it prices too low. What’s your experience?
Dirk:
I totally agree. I think there’s a fundamental problem in the pricing of Airbnb, and that’s that Airbnb has to suit the needs of two groups, so they cater to the guests and to the hosts, which is weird because those interests are not aligned. The hosts want to make as much money as possible, within reason of course, and the guests just want a place as cheap as possible. So, that contradicts, and Airbnb has to play a role in that, and their difficulty is that they want to be cheap for the guests and they’d rather rent out your apartment 6 days for €80 than 5 days for €100. Well, you might rather rent it out less for a higher price. So, I think there’s a fundamental flaw in the pricing system, and that’s that it has to serve two groups.
Well, for example, Beyond Pricing or the other pricing algorithms or apps that are out there, basically serve the host, and that’s also what our own algorithm does. We serve our customers, and of course, we want to give a fair price, and you don’t want to overprice it because that will influence your reviews, but we don’t have to take into account what the guest wants in the sense of pricing. Yeah, we can optimize it better than Airbnb would ever be able to.
Jasper:
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, when you put it that way, because it’s impossible to cater to the needs of the hosts and the guests at the same time. Yeah, I’ve been using Beyond Pricing myself and I’m very happy with it. I actually have a special deal for people who want to sign up. If you use code ‘GP4’, (as in the number ‘4’), and then ‘YP’, then you’ll get one month for free and $60 in Beyond Pricing credit. So, they typically charge 1%. Maybe you get it a little bit cheaper because you have so many listings?
Dirk:
I can’t say anything about it.
Jasper:
That is confidential.
Dirk:
Yeah.
Jasper:
I’ll ask Ian, the CEO, when I see him next time. But, yeah, it’s a great app. I’ll put the code in the show notes, as well, at getpaidforyourpad.com/podcast so that you can check it out.
So, you have your own developers to create your own apps. Is it easy to create an app for Airbnb? Like, is it easy to connect to the Airbnb website? Does Airbnb allow people to use apps?
Dirk:
No, not really. Well, they have an official API, but they only put it up for rural markets and not for urban markets. I think it’s something that they will have to do in the future because the other platforms are. For example, we also work with booking.com, and we’re connected to their API. So, I think it’s going to happen in the future, and they’re testing with it already, but they want to keep their system closed as long as possible, I think, and I don’t blame them. With more competition, like 9flats and Wimdu, Fusion, you see that when they will make the move, Airbnb will have to eventually open up their platform, so I have great hopes that they will, but for now, it’s a hassle and you have to find workarounds.
Jasper:
Right, yeah, because I’m not very technical, so I don’t know how it works, but I was just surprised that you were saying that you could send automatic messages. But don’t you have to connect to their API to do that?
Dirk:
Yeah, I’m also not a technical person of our company. I just know that it works and I also know that it’s hard. So, yeah, we found ways around it and I think a couple of other companies are doing the same. But no, it’s hard.
Jasper:
So, for people who are listening who are in Amsterdam or in Paris, how can they work with you?
Dirk:
Well, it’s very easy. You go to the website, which is, for Amsterdam, iambnb.nl, and for Paris, iambnb.fr, and you just sign up. What we usually do is, we do an intake, so we come to the apartment, make the pictures, ask about your needs, tell you how we work. And after that, you give us the key, you go on a holiday, and when you return, you’ve earned money. That’s basically our service.
Jasper:
You create the listings, as well? So, all I need to do is give you the keys?
Dirk:
Yeah. Yeah, basically. So, we have, of course, a questionnaire with some personal questions, questions about the house. And then, either you already have a listing and we manage it, or we make a listing for you, and of course we optimize it. We do the pricing, we do the check-in, cleaning, and we have our own bed linen, towels, amenities for the guests. So, we take care of everything. Yeah, you make money from your hammock. That’s our slogan.
Jasper:
That’s pretty awesome. And what is the cost? What percentage of the revenue do you take?
Dirk:
We take a percentage of 20% ex-VAT, and we chose, for a percentage, so we have the same interest, because the more our customers own, the more we make. So, we align our interests. Also, we did some tests with a bed-and-breakfast who previously did it themselves, and on average, we made 40% more for them, so basically, it made them 20% to hire us because of our pricing, our responsiveness, and high review rate.
Jasper:
Right. So even, let’s say, somebody has an apartment and maybe they travel for one or two months in the year, or maybe even more because 60 days, you can do 60 days in total, that’s going to be more than two months, right, because you never get 100% occupancy, right?
Dirk:
Exactly, yeah.
Jasper:
So, if you’re away for even up to three months, you can make a significant income. And you’re saying the 20% that you charge, you’ll probably make that back because, well especially… I mean, I believe it because I know that if you start out and you don’t know what you’re doing, it’s really hard to get some traction, you know. So, doing it well, doing the pictures well, doing the description well, and just creating a great guest experience so you get those five-star reviews is very essential to getting any momentum on the platform. So, I believe it. I believe you can make that 20% back because, even just the pricing, you know, is probably going to, already, make you 20%.
Dirk:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jasper:
Because I think the pricing is one of the things that is the hardest, right. I mean, you can’t really expect, from hosts, that they can calculate optimal prices.
Dirk:
No. It’s also where we get the most questions from, and then we get comments like, “Oh, my neighbor’s running an ad for €300 a night, so I should do that, as well.” But then, they don’t realize that they see their neighbor because it’s not booked. So, yeah, it’s on €300 a night, but maybe they rent it out only one or two nights a year.
And, other than that, they only see the apartments that aren’t booked for the period that they search for, so basically, you see the bad examples and they copy that. And we have like 900 apartments, so we can actually test on text, on photos, on everything, what works and what doesn’t. So, we take similar apartments and we A/B test what works or what doesn’t work, and that really helps in getting the best price and maximizing the revenue.
Jasper:
Right. So, you’re in Amsterdam and Paris. Do you have plans to expand to other cities, as well?
Dirk:
Yeah. For now, we’re going to keep in Amsterdam and Paris. That’s two major cities in Europe as it comes to Airbnb, but of course, we’re planning to expand. We’re talking to smaller companies in different cities, and actually, people come to us and they say, “Well, I want to start this in Ibiza,” or, “I want to start this in Berlin.” So, we’re having these talks and we’re making our server and our team ready to expand to more cities, because we really believe that we add value with our server and with our centralized customer care team. So, yeah. And this year, we’re going to probably open one or two other cities, probably in Europe. And after that, yeah, the world is our playground.
Jasper:
Right. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot for your time, and I wish you all the best for 2017 and beyond. And maybe, in a while from now, when you’ve expanded internationally, we can do another chat and see how it’s going.
Dirk:
Yeah, cool. Thank you.
Jasper:
All right. Well, everybody, if you’re in Amsterdam, in Paris, go ahead and check out iambnb, that is iambnb.nl or .fr for France. And if you’re in another one of those cities, maybe in the future, you’ll be able to sign up, as well.
So, thanks for listening. Of course, the show notes are going to be at getpaidforyourpad.com/podcast. And we’ll see you next time.
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