The state of the STR industry with Rent Responsibly (Ep 614)

In this episode, Jasper Ribbers interviews Dave Krauss, the co-founder of Rent Responsibly, an organization that supports the short-term rental industry. They discuss the importance of creating alliances and advocating for balanced regulations in the industry. They also highlight the need for education and research to inform policy decisions. Dave introduces the State of the Short-Term Rental Industry Survey, which aims to gather data from hosts and local government officials to shape the future of the industry. They encourage listeners to participate in the survey and get involved with local alliances to have their voices heard.

Takeaways

Creating alliances and advocating for balanced regulations is crucial for the short-term rental industry.
Education and research are essential to inform policy decisions and correct misconceptions about the industry.
The State of the Short-Term Rental Industry Survey provides an opportunity for hosts and local government officials to contribute to shaping the future of the industry.
Getting involved with local alliances can provide benefits such as education, networking, and advocacy support.

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Jasper Ribbers (00:00.811)
What's up everybody. Welcome back to Get Paid for Your Pet. It's been a while since I've released an episode. Behind the scenes, Eric and I have been working really hard on some pretty major updates when it comes to FreeWild. And also when it comes to overnight success, we're actually rolling out a complete new structure for our business where we're going to be able to support the short -term rental industry through some pretty exciting stuff. We'll have an update on that soon.

But for now, let's focus on my special guest, Mr. Dave Krause. He's been on the podcast a couple of times. I think it's your third, maybe your fourth time. He's the co -founder of Rent Responsibly, the organization that does efficacy in the short -term rental industry, which is very much needed because we all know how the regulations are limiting our actions everywhere these days. So Dave, welcome to the show.

Dave Krauss (00:57.58)
Jasper, thank you for having me, whether this is third, fourth, or fifth time, it feels timely and I've missed your audience and I've missed you, so I'm thrilled to be here.

Jasper Ribbers (01:09.003)
Awesome dude, awesome. Yeah, why don't you give us a quick update for the people that are not familiar with Rent Responsibly and what you do with that organization. Give us a quick introduction.

Dave Krauss (01:21.678)
Be glad to rent responsibly is a community building and education platform for short -term rental owners, operators, and other industry stakeholders, service providers, suppliers, anybody who holds a stake in the future of the industry. We cater to their needs. And when I say community building, we, we, uh, focus exclusively on.

local short -term rental group building, alliance building, and in some cases at the state level as well. So if you're listening to this podcast and you say, what is that? Well, a short -term rental alliance is a collection of owners, hosts, and managers in the same geography that have come together and built a group, sometimes even a 501 C6 trade association, and are trying to level up and professionalize and advocate.

and bring positive messaging to the industry at their local level. So we support all facets of that action and we do it across the country and then we network those groups together, which is where the platform comes in. So we've built the Rent Responsibly Network, which a lot of these local alliances, there are about 93 across the country at this point, are connecting through our network. And it's been a beautiful process and we're just thrilled.

to see post pandemic organization and strength building and political power building and advocacy building across the country. And then the second piece was education. So layered into all of those support initiatives that we have for the local alliances, we're building education materials, holding education webinars, education.

summits, all sorts of virtual events and content online, answering the questions that we hear all the time. Sometimes it's as simple as, you know, pet policies, what's the deal with those or industry trends? How, what can I expect in the upcoming year in my market or my region? It's across the board. We partner with a lot of companies to bring high quality education and.

Dave Krauss (03:42.83)
In short, Jasper, it's the platform I wish was there when I started hosting. And so that's why we're building it.

Jasper Ribbers (03:50.155)
Yeah. What are some of the most common questions that you guys receive when it comes to efficacy and creating alliances?

Dave Krauss (03:58.542)
The most common question is my city is proposing something. What do I do? Right. Um, it's, it's, we, we divide the world into firefighting and fireproofing, right? So when you're in firefighting mode, that's, there's some threat, there's some kind of fire raging in city hall or somebody's trying to, uh, create new regulatory, uh, frameworks. Sometimes they're good for the industry. Probably more often they're.

onerous or trying to curtail or limit or even ban in certain cases, short -term mental activity. And so we get that call all the time and we help connect those folks with resources. The first and best resource if it's existent in your community is the organized group. It can be as much as, or as little as a Facebook group.

as much as a full trade association at the local level or at the state level. Um, and then the VRMA and other organizations have resources that are accessible as well. So that's kind of your firefighting piece. Like what the heck do I do? I'm scared. And the other most common question we get is how do we prevent our city or our, um, community from kind of rising up or.

Jasper Ribbers (05:19.595)
and

Dave Krauss (05:24.454)
activating to the point where they're proposing regulatory issues that are really not good for anybody. And those issues are usually stemming from narratives that have gotten out of control, right? There's party houses everywhere. Affordable housing is being, you know, destroyed by short term rentals, or the character of the neighborhoods changing overnight, and I don't like it. Those

Stories are ones where we need to show up to those conversations as, you know, the upstanding and professional and really conscientious folks in this industry to make sure that the story is balanced and right. And we're working together towards positive outcomes with our community. So firefighting, fireproofing, we hear it all, we help it all.

Jasper Ribbers (06:13.419)
Mm.

It's not that you guys are against any type of regulation, right? Your goal is more to encourage regulations that are balanced, where there's room for certain rentals, but at the same time, there's also some limits to it. Is that, do I say that right?

Dave Krauss (06:35.566)
Yes. You know, that's, that's one of the most important things to understand about rent responsibilities. We don't have our rent responsibly policy that we want to see enacted. The goal are, is to get those that will be impacted by any regulation to get involved. And so we can help them, that group, that, that individual, if it's somebody who comes to us, understand what the regulatory,

Jasper Ribbers (06:55.819)
Mm -hmm.

Dave Krauss (07:05.122)
options are or are existing regs that are around the country that actually work and are beneficial and fair and balanced. And we educate them and help them educate their regulators or politicians or whomever. And so we are really more of an empowerment mentality than a you know, policy first type of place. That said, Jasper, it's really

bans on short terminals that I think everybody is against having a legal pathway where the good apples can thrive and then there's enforcement to get bad apples out of the system. That's I think the most basic and universal policy concept that I think everybody's behind and certainly we are too.

Jasper Ribbers (07:55.755)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember about four or five years ago, a lot of hosts were just talking about, we want to be in a market. We're looking for these markets where there's no regulations, right? Because in their mind, they were thinking, oh, those markets are great. You can do anything you want when it comes to short term rentals. So let's go to those markets. And now what we're seeing is that those markets where there's no restrictions at all, the inventory has grown so much. Right. And now a lot of operators.

Dave Krauss (08:08.62)
Yeah.

Jasper Ribbers (08:27.915)
are looking back and thinking, hmm, okay, maybe a market where there's no limits at all is not that great because our ADR has dropped 20, 30, 40, 50 % compared to a few years ago. So, you know, I think we've learned that like, you know, having some limitations is not necessarily a bad thing for us, right? Because unlimited growth can also really hurt the performance of our units.

Dave Krauss (08:54.702)
100%. And I've been in those conversations I started hosting in 2013. And so the change in the last 1011 years has gone through a couple lifetimes of this industry. And but I think the biggest line of demarcation or moment in our whole industry in that in the 10 years was COVID. And so I call it BC and AD, right? You know,

everybody knows BCAD. Well, there's before COVID. And then there's after disruption or after the disruption of COVID. So BC back, you know, in the teens, you had a whole different set of concerns from the community level from investor, host, vacation rental owner, you name it, um, urban destination market. The rules were very different.

of how these conversations were going. The primary objections were party houses, noise, trash, parking, those types of things. AD, after the disruption of COVID, it's more housing and housing policy issues, workforce housing, and then what are the right ways to limit proliferation, right? If in those markets where maybe there were…

no regs or limited regs or no limitations. I think communities cross country are wondering how do we get our hands around, you what is the maximum number of permits we want to have or density limits in certain areas. So the nuances have really come around, but this is how the rules of the road are made, right? In the early automobile days, the automobile was on the road before there were rules of the road.

So we look a lot at that historical example of how rules were created for the automobile, things like driver's ed, things like registration, license plates, all these types of things that you start to see emerging in our industry. And the only way that's gonna come out in a very fair and balanced way is this, the short -term mental stakeholders, that's us, that's whomever is listening to this podcast.

Dave Krauss (11:13.102)
get involved and ensure that your voice is heard when these issues come up in your community.

Jasper Ribbers (11:14.059)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Ribbers (11:18.443)
Right. That's an interesting example of analogy with the car. Because when the car was first invented, the first person that crashed and died, it was like, oh, OK, well, I guess these cars can be dangerous. Well, instead of just banning the car, it's like, all right, you have to wear a seatbelt. You need a driver license. You can't drive faster than 30 miles an hour, whatever it is. Right?

So that's, I guess, a similar process here where it's like, okay, well, it's too extreme to just ban it completely, but let's figure out a way how it's balanced and we could still have short -term rentals. But there's some rules and regulations to make it a sustainable and kind of an enjoyable industry for everybody involved.

Dave Krauss (12:09.998)
100 % Jasper and I having been nerdy enough to really go deep on on early automobile regulation. And I hope I don't lose all your listeners right now. So stay stick with me here. The earliest regulatory frameworks just flat out didn't work for the automobile. So the first speed limit was five miles an hour. Why? Because horses and buggies travel at five miles an hour. But the Ford Model T stalls out.

at five miles an hour has to go faster than that just to keep running. So you have these these rules that fundamentally weren't going to work. And that's why it compelled the auto enthusiasts, the gearheads, as they called them, to get involved in and kind of educate, educate policymakers get involved, even get elected in certain instances to help make rules. And then what do we see is

more research, more experimentation, more technological advancement, right? Like anti -lock brakes, turn signals, stop lights, you know, even things like the old speed, the officers that would control speeding were literally stand on the corner of the street and just try and observe traffic. And then pretty soon they realized a mechanical,

system for stop and go, right, we know them as streetlights came around and that that cost one 10th the cost of having a cop on the street. And it also made it 10 times safer. So you just can't look at our industry right now as like, oh, this is the way it's always going to be we need to regulate for this moment. You got to technology will come around research will come around. And the changes will take years but

you know, unless we're involved, we have people making five mile an hour type speed limits. And it just they're they don't work. It's they're nonsensical. And, you know, in some ways, we can help that process move along faster. And there's a lot of benefits to getting organized.

Jasper Ribbers (14:06.921)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Ribbers (14:16.491)
Yeah. Is it the case now, you're talking about like before COVID and after disruption, as you say. What we're seeing when it comes to like occupancy and travel trends, it seems like we're almost back to normal, right? Like, especially this year, what we're seeing at least in our portfolios that we're involved in is…

Dave Krauss (14:23.574)
Mm -hmm.

Dave Krauss (14:32.62)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Ribbers (14:40.115)
You know, people are starting to go back to traditional travel trends of like we're traveling in the summer, no holidays, and you know, very high demand on the free day weekends and in the summer. And the demand outside of those areas is starting to weaken quite a bit compared to right after COVID when people were just traveling whenever, right? And it didn't really matter because everyone was remote and children didn't go to school and that. So it's interesting that you say that on the regulatory landscape.

Dave Krauss (14:59.126)
Mm -hmm.

Jasper Ribbers (15:09.003)
There seems to be COVID has caused a permanent, almost permanent shift that we're not like going back to what was like pre -COVID as we do with the travel trends.

Dave Krauss (15:21.326)
Yeah, I think the, the statistic that shocked me and kind of blew my socks off was that from 2019 to 2022, the increase in the number of cities talking and addressing the short -term rental regulations in their jurisdiction went up, get this 45 % or sorry, 45 times. So if there was one town,

Jasper Ribbers (15:50.107)
Wow.

Dave Krauss (15:51.086)
there was then 45 towns a couple of years later. And it's, it's the main reason was they were dealing with COVID and COVID related, you know, safety and the schools open all that sort of stuff in the, in the interim. But the number one issue that the city or their constituents were asking for them to deal with after, you know, the vaccines came out and things like that.

was short -term rentals. And it's because short -term rentals became 250 % more popular. There were so many people not only staying and traveling and using short -term rentals, but the people who had a vacation rental who might have been a renter before maybe moved into their house. And so now they're a full -time resident in Steamboat Springs or, you know, Aspen or, you know, Galveston or something like that.

And now they vote there and now they know their city hall and they're starting to say, we have too many vacation rentals. And it's, you know, it's, it's just all this disruption to the way the industry has gone. Um, and then obviously the popularity of an interest in being a host, uh, has gone up along with it. I mean, it's, it's kind of, you know, I don't have a statistic behind this, but it's probably one of the number one occupations that people want to have or want to get out of their.

Jasper Ribbers (17:02.547)
Mm -hmm.

Dave Krauss (17:13.1)
existing employment. You and I Jasper discovered hosting years and years ago, and kind of fell in love with it. There's it's it's awesome. We love it, like we get it. But more and more people experienced it and now want to be on that side of it as well. And that's why we need to really think about what we're doing to help develop level up professionalize our industry proactively ourselves because if we don't do it, somebody is going to try and

bring their set of rules upon us. And, you know, like I said, they don't always make sense.

Jasper Ribbers (17:46.781)
So going back to the analogy of the car, right? Right now, you know, for the last 50 years or so, the rules have not changed that much when it comes to cars, right? Yeah, cars speed limit may have gone up a little bit because cars get safer and like faster and everything. But, you know, I guess like we're, we're long in maturity of the car regulation, right?

How far on that journey are we when it comes to shorter rentals? Are we still at the beginning? Are we somewhere in the middle? Or do you feel like we're getting pretty close to reaching some type of equilibrium where most areas, the regulation is pretty similar?

Dave Krauss (18:27.374)
Love the question. I have, uh, looked into this almost in a granular level. So in 1908 Ford model two rolls off the assembly line. The parallel there is in 2008 Airbnb was founded, right? So you have this exact 100 year, um, gap and the 19 teens were very, very disruptive. Um, the biggest,

backlash against the automobile was, you won't believe this, maybe you will, but were noise, trash and parking. The cars were too loud. They scared the horses. The car broke down. It became trash. There were no, uh, there were no trucks to haul them away. And then of course there's no parking spaces cause nobody planned on having, you know, hundreds of thousands of cars.

It went in 1909, there were 200 ,000 cars 1916, there were 2 million cars on the road. So that's kind of like, Oh, Airbnb is in urban environments. And then a couple years later, Airbnb is in every town in the in the country and across the world, like same thing was happening in that decade. So 19 teens, 2010s, very similar. What happens in the 1920s is where we are. And that's when

the community of gear heads and auto enthusiasts started to get organized. Eventually they banded a network together and that became guess what? The American automobile association, AAA, we know it as today. So AAA starts to build out these educational resources. They start to centralize different policy recommendations.

They do a lot to say we need to self manage the development and evolution of the automobile industry because we understand cars and we are doing the research and we're the right people to, to look at the future and chart the path to get there. So right now, 2024, we're in the same evolutionary cycle in our industry where the industry is getting organized. Yes. But we're also starting to do the research.

Dave Krauss (20:45.006)
to undergird and inform the policies and the ways that we as an industry can self manage, right? We don't need local government to tell us all the rules. We can, as an industry, start to build in mechanisms and education. And just going back 100 years, what happened was local government wanted to do education, right? They wanted to lead on education. Very quickly, they learned they were very…

bad at educating the common public relative to having the industry do that themselves. So AAA and these groups started bringing courses into grade schools and teaching kids look both ways before you cross the street. We all heard look both ways. That was not local government. That was the industry teaching kids how to be safe around automobiles, things of that nature, drunk driving, right?

those are things that started within the industry because they recognized it was a bad thing and causing bad outcomes. They figured out the right rules and then they became statutes and laws and so forth. So what we're in right now and I can't, I don't want to sound preachy cause like frankly, I, I just want people to be aware of what's going on. It's not like you must do this. You must do that. Like that's up for everybody to get involved or not, but

It's important to know that we're getting this body of education. We're getting this body of information. And that's what we'll talk about a second in this, the survey we're doing. And then we're going to go deploy it. We're going to empower local groups, local alliances across the country to have information, have proposals, have, um, better solutions than their city government might already be thinking about and give them the tools to start to say,

We want the bad apples. We want the party houses out of our community as badly as the local government, as badly as code enforcement, as badly as the angry neighbors. And this is what we're going to do about it. We don't need drunk drivers on the road, but if we don't get to thinking of this industry as it's in our control to chart the future, then we're just going to let somebody else do it. And it's not, it's just going to, it's going to be backwards. So that's the moment we're in.

Dave Krauss (23:06.478)
We're 100 years on, we're just repeating the cycle. We know the future is very, very bright, but it's on us. It's our generation's task to get this right.

Jasper Ribbers (23:18.731)
So rent responsibly is essentially the AAAA of the social rental industry.

Dave Krauss (23:27.042)
Almost exactly right. We support the triple A of the industry. We're kind of the like tech and, uh, and support system that helps that type of organization network and, and so forth. So yes, you're right, but you're also, you know, we want the local people. It's all about pushing the power all the way to the people who are local on the front lines, care the most on know the nuances of their community.

Um, so we have a, it's a, it's actually a military strategy of all things to really, uh, push the authority and the decision making to the extremities. And therefore you have the people closest to the action able to, uh, react and do stuff, uh, or, you know, try to achieve their goals with all the tools that are available to them. So we think a lot about that type of strategic stuff, but we'd rather be known.

as supporting the efforts. And in some ways we're leading them, of course, but you know, it's, it's important for people to understand that we're just here to empower you.

Jasper Ribbers (24:35.563)
So let's talk about the education and research side that you've talked about because you guys are doing a survey. That's something that you do every year. I was reading that last year, 4 ,600 short -term rental hosts participated in the survey, which means that you get a ton of data. So that's really interesting. Yeah. Tell us about the survey that you guys are doing right now.

Dave Krauss (25:03.598)
I would love to Jasper. I am thrilled actually to because thrilled because this is actually the first podcast or opportunity. This will come out April 1st. The survey we're doing starts on April 1st and runs through April 14th. It's called the state of the short term rental industry survey. The people who will be taking it are owners, hosts, managers, co -hosts,

anybody who is in the business of hosting and participating in the short -term rental industry on the supply side. And the survey will hopefully reach more than 4 ,600 people, which to the best of my knowledge is the largest survey ever done of hosts and managers. So we get this really beautiful data set that

will help us inform what we do and how we move forward as an industry and support different initiatives and elements of the industry advocacy being one of them. But you know, what is the purpose of this survey? Why are we doing it? First and foremost, it's make it a really easy way to get your listeners or any host a way to get their voice heard. It's an anonymous survey. So don't.

not going to tie it to you at all, but your contribution of taking it is really an act of getting your voice heard. And then the impact we hope to have with that data is to create positive industry, public relations and narratives to correct the misconceptions, right? Uh, one of the things that pisses me off more than anything is I was once called a criminal for being a host to my face. I'm gonna say,

you're basically you're a criminal for doing what you're doing. And I just, you know, I had to control my anger a little bit, but I ultimately said, excuse me, ma ‘am, I'm registered. I'm doing everything that is asked of me. And I'm trying to get other people registered in and into the system the right way. And so telling that story of what our industry is doing to correct the misconceptions and tell the right story, huge piece of it.

Dave Krauss (27:24.782)
Um, the other pieces of it are to provide information and intelligence to guide the tools and the education that we need as an industry to distribute. Um, a lot of it looks like early host education. What are the key things that, uh, every host needs to know to be a good apple, right? Um, there's two pieces of that. It's being a good neighbor and in good standing. So are you managing a property that's, uh, you know, considered a good neighbor and a good.

participant in your community and are you compliant with all the things you need to be compliant with? Great, very simple. How can we get more resources there? And the last two are supporting those local alliances, the decisions they have to make, the advocacy efforts they have to make. One of our goals and our missions is to make every hour and every dollar go 10 times farther. So how do we create a tool once that we can give to 10 groups, right? How do we…

expand and you know, with limited resources have a greater impact. And then lastly is giving advocates in our industry, the messaging and the tools and playbook for how to really develop fair and effective regulations with their local government. So, you know, I will say the survey is not boring. It's not like mind numbing questions. It's actually just asking questions about you.

what you want to see and how you know why why do you host what would you do if if bad regs came your way would you just quit would you actually go to long -term renting would you know how much of your household income do you derive from short -term rentals these types of questions go a long long way and we need we need you to take the survey so if you're hearing this between April 1st and April 14th go to rent responsibly org it will pop up.

Um, it takes, it should take approximately 10 minutes. So 10 minutes of your life to, to really make an impact. And we will, um, we will, you know, follow up and run with this information and it'll be to your benefit.

Jasper Ribbers (29:37.611)
And do the people that participate in the survey, do they also get insights into the results?

Dave Krauss (29:44.302)
Yeah. So after you complete the survey, and I'll tell you a little bit about who we're working with on the survey as well. But after you complete the survey, uh, you're dropped onto a landing page and the landing page will ask you if you want to receive the survey, um, itself. And then it also asks if you, uh, are interested in connecting with the survey sponsors that made it all happen. Um, so the partners we worked with,

to develop the survey and make sure it was of high quality was led by the College of Charleston and the Verbo team and GovOS team as well. I'll tell you one more piece of the survey after I talk about the partners, but our partners, we're not responsible as partners, Breezeway, Proper Insurance, NoiseAware, and D -Travel.

Um, all contributed and supported to the support of the cause, supported the effort, as well as our gold sponsors host away super hog in touch today. And then our other sponsors were host fully in top key. And then we have a variety of organizations, including Jasper, um, and Eric and their group to distribute the survey. So we have a lot of people who have contributed to making this happen. Um, and I.

I want to take one, one moment here, Jasper to say that what I described as the operator or owner host manager survey is half of the project. It's half the project. The other half, and this is really where college of Charleston has helped the most is we have a survey that will be sent to tens of thousands of local government officials, staff, elected officials, asking questions of them.

about what they want to see. What are their goals? Are the ordinances that they've already created working? Why or why not? How can we as an industry help them with their initiatives? And can we come, you know, further beyond the 50 yard line, meet them where they're at, help them understand, you know, more about the industry and so forth. And that the two sides of that coin, when we have the operator responses,

Dave Krauss (32:03.598)
and the local government responses. We similar to the survey we did a couple years ago that you talked about, this is our second one. It really, it was the first time local government had ever been asked these questions, right? Their stakeholders too, they oftentimes want the same thing we do. So the ability to mesh and compare these two data sets that we'll have in a couple of weeks.

Uh, it is groundbreaking. It should be groundbreaking. It should change the narrative. And ultimately, uh, all of us want to thrive and see this industry, you know, grow responsibly and have bad actors, uh, managed or educated and, you know, and, and have these good apples, these good actors of folks that are listening to this podcast thrive. And this is the only way to do it.

Jasper Ribbers (32:54.667)
Okay. So for everybody who's listening, go to rentresponsibly .org. Go ahead and fill out that survey. As David mentioned, it's really our responsibility as individual hosts, operators, any, like you mentioned, any stakeholders really to help shape future regulations and not leave it up to just those, the officials, because otherwise it's not going to be.

probably not going to be very much in our favor. So we have to be part of that. So go ahead, participate. You said it takes, what did you say, 10 minutes?

Dave Krauss (33:31.246)
Yeah, around approximately 10 minutes or 10 minutes of your life to create the future short term models. I think it's a good I think it's a good trade.

Jasper Ribbers (33:40.171)
Fair ask, I would say.

Dave Krauss (33:42.634)
Yeah, I waited at Starbucks longer in line to get a coffee this morning. So you know, you can you can do it from your phone while you're waiting for a coffee, maybe.

Jasper Ribbers (33:52.491)
Oh man, 10 minutes at Starbucks, that's a lot. That's a long line. All right, David, I appreciate you, everything you do for our industry. I appreciate you jumping on here and explaining more about what rent responsibility is and how we can play a part in.

Dave Krauss (33:55.214)
Yeah, what are they doing? Maybe brush our.

Jasper Ribbers (34:12.395)
Uh, you know, really driving those, uh, those recollections and shaping reshaping our industry, right. And, uh, taking 10 minutes to participate in your surveys is really a great first step. Uh, if people are listening to this and they think, you know what, like, I'd like to get involved with my local lines, or maybe you want to start your own Alliance. Right. What would be the best first step for those people?

Dave Krauss (34:35.852)
Well, we have the perfect solution for that. If you go to rentresponsibly .org and navigate to our alliances tab, there is a directory of 93 alliances. So you can just search for your market, your state, wherever you are, there's a map to so you can just click on it. And then if you don't see an alliance there, there's right below that.

a question, do you want to start an Alliance and then you will get in touch with our team will tell you exactly how it works. We support you all the way through. And, you know, I, the last thing I'll say on it is there are real benefits to starting an Alliance or joining an Alliance that are not just advocacy and regulatory related. They have meetup groups, they have education webinars, they are out in the community.

building connections with the realtors groups and the chambers of commerce. So you can the benefits really fall all across the board, they'll help you host you'll ultimately be a better host learn more tactics to make more money and be more successful. So it's really joining a club of enthusiasts, and I highly encourage it.

Jasper Ribbers (35:55.22)
Mm -hmm. This reminds me of my first ever business mentor. One of the first lessons that he taught me was be the hub, not the spoke. And so instead of like jumping on other people's bandwagons, be the bandwagon, right? Start your own.

Dave Krauss (36:04.686)
Yeah.

Dave Krauss (36:13.166)
Yeah.

Jasper Ribbers (36:13.579)
Cause like people, it opens doors and people will see you as a, as a leader. And it opens up, opens doors and opens a lot of opportunities for you, right? When you are the organizer and you're the, the, the bandwagon, if you will.

Dave Krauss (36:30.414)
Yeah. And most hubs start off as spokes, right? So just go, you know, get, go through the front door, uh, join, sign up for the newsletter or what have you. That's, that's right there for you. And, um, I, I can't say it enough. Like my favorite quote is an Abe Lincoln quote, and it says, if you want to predict the future or the best way to predict the future is to create it.

We're not 50 years from now going to be able to create the future of our industry the way we have the opportunity to now. And you can be part of that. You can answer 10 minutes on a survey. You can get involved in any which way you want. Uh, the benefits will accrue to you. So it's do it for any reason you can think of, but one of them is just making sure that you have had your voice heard, right? That's what it's all about.

Jasper Ribbers (37:26.431)
Amen to that. Well spoken. All right, Dave, it was great seeing you. Thank you for jumping on here and to all the listeners. Hope you enjoyed this podcast. We'll be back on track here in April with more episodes. We had a bit of a quiet time when it comes to the podcast. So we'll get back on track this month. So you'll have more episodes to listen to very, very soon. So we'll see you then.

Dave Krauss (37:53.582)
Ciao!